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Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 5

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September 5

Category:Hollywood Supporters of the Democratic Party

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The result of the debate was Delete. WinHunter (talk) 02:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Hollywood Supporters of the Democratic Party (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Category:Famous temples of Rajasthan

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The result of the debate was Rename. WinHunter (talk) 05:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC) Category:Famous temples of Rajasthan to Category:Temples in Rajasthan

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Category:Polish resistance operations

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The result of the debate was Delete. WinHunter (talk) 02:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC) Category:Polish resistance operations has been replaced by Category:Polish resistance during World War II

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Category:Famous people from Piedmont

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The result of the debate was rename Tim! 16:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Famous people from Piedmont to Category:People from Piedmont, California

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Category:Articles that do not belong in this category

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 16:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Articles that do not belong in this category (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Category:The 198 Files

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The result of the debate was no consensus on what to rename to, renominate if desired --Kbdank71 17:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:The 198 Files (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

  • Rename, I agree with HelenKMarks for this reason: there are more than 198 mutants with their powers remaining (some of them are considered such just because the authors haven't got around to talking about EVERY mutant that was ever created). The 198 number was originally an estimation, but it has been surpassed. Rename to "Powered mutants" gets my vote. Tullyman 23:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename but not to "Powered mutants." This is only about fictional mutants appearing in Marvel Comics. "Powered mutants" would be inappropriate. Doczilla 16:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename but I agree that Powered Mutants is a bit odd. Maybe Marvel Comics powered mutants? -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 16:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
It's already a subcategory of Category:Marvel Comics mutants, so I don't know if that's necessary. If it is, though, Depowered mutants will have to be renamed too. -HKMarks 16:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Roman Catholic sportspeople

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The result of the debate was marked and protected --Kbdank71 17:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Mark as {{deletedcategory}}, see discussions of July 25, August 25. -- ProveIt (talk) 16:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Leaders of China

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 17:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Leaders of China (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Category:Melissa Tkautz albums

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The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 17:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Only 2 album releases to date, not enough releases to warrant a category of its own. -- Longhair 15:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

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Films by director

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 17:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Rename, to convention of Category:Films by director. -- ProveIt (talk) 15:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Guy Sebastian albums

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The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 17:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This artist was the winner of the first Australian Idol television series and has released only 2 albums to date, not enough releases to warrant a category of its own. -- Longhair 15:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What special case is that? What value does a category of one entry hold? -- Longhair 15:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albums#Categories. -- ProveIt (talk) 15:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
This special case holds for any type of work which has a "by author" category. There has been a desire to give every album an artist category, and so too with category:Songs by artist.--Mike Selinker 17:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
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Automakers by state

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 17:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Queen categories

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The result of the debate was withdrawn. the wub "?!" 17:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete, covered by Category:Queen, Category:WikiProject Queen, Category:Queen articles by importance & Category:Queen articles by quality. -- ProveIt (talk) 14:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Why does it need more than the usual subcats of Category:Wikipedia 1.0 assessments? -- ProveIt (talk) 18:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Because non-article pages (categories, templates, etc.) get tagged with assessment-producing project tags, but aren't actually assessed? It's possible to lump them all into a single category (e.g. Category:Non-article military history pages), but some projects prefer a bit more order to the system. Kirill Lokshin 18:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Writing systems categories

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The result of the debate was do nothing. Categories have now been listed for over two weeks without having been tagged. --Kbdank71 16:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Writing systems categories (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Includes all of these. Some have not been created yet but are listed to be at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Writing systems

Not a valid reason. They would be merged into another category, so no one would lose their category. pschemp | talk 00:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Comments
  • Comment. I think we're going to need a discussion on how the languages categories should be organized. There's a school of linguistic thought called interlanguage that says non-native speakers can never achieve full fluency in speaking a foreign language, but I'll have to find out whether that's true for writing systems. (If writing systems solely defines alphabets, though, it's hard to imagine that anyone over the age of 7 couldn't establish fluency quickly, unless they had a general literacy problem. With a language like Chinese, though, fluency becomes complicated.) Just some info.--Mike Selinker 13:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment it is really bad the admin user:pschemp does this voting in hidden from the users that are in the category and that use the templates. This is really bad behavior. I go and will inform the users. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment The system will need to shake down and some redundancy may need to be eliminated, but I'm sure this can be dealt with quickly. Personally I think there are too many skill levels. But deleting everything at this stage will be seriously unhelpful. Andrew Dalby 12:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I think that skill levels with regard to writing systems is redundant and unnecessary. "This user can use the Cyrillic script" is fine. There needs be only one of these for each script. Evertype 12:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Malformed - This is a malformed deletion request. I can't find a notice of this proposed deletion on ANY of the impacted categories. Deleting categories used by hundreds of people without posting any notice of the discussion is a 'bad idea' <tm>. --CBD 14:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
If you actually read, the proposal is a merge to simplify, not just delete. No one would lose their precious category, only the levels would be reduced. pschemp | talk 00:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
If that's the case, this needs to be listed as a nomination for merging rather than a nomination for deletion, and the categories still need to be tagged. What category were you wanting to merge these into? --Cswrye 19:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Reformed seminaries and theological colleges

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The result of the debate was rename/merge to Category:Reformed church theological colleges and seminaries --Kbdank71 17:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Reformed seminaries and theological colleges to Category:Reformed Church seminaries and theological colleges

I agree. This re-naming makes good sense to be clearer. However, we probably do need a cat. for places like Moore College which is Anglican but also identifies as Reformed (in the broader sense of the word). Cor Unum 11:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no Reformed Church however, and that's misleading about the title. I agree that the ambiguity of it all should be cleared up, as any Protestant denomination can claim to be reformed. However, I would suggest such a disambiguation in including the keyword "Theological" before seminaries. This shows that the category is referring to seminaries that teach Reformed Theology, rather than alluding to a non-existant Reformed Church. Therefore, I propose the category be renamed to Category:Reformed theological seminaries and colleges. I remove the "theological" from before "colleges" as it would be redundant and it's made apparent earlier in the category name that reformed theological institutes is what we are referring to. Regards, Shazbot85Talk 15:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Shazbot85, forgive me if I think you misunderstood the purpose of the request. There is indeed a well recognised family of Reformed Churches, listed in the article Reformed churches and in Category:Reformed Church - that is Dutch Reformed, Swiss Reformed, Church of Christ, Congregational, Presbyterian, and a few others. It is a very useful denomination for a cetegory like this, as it includes many of the twentieth centuries uniting churches such as the United Reformed Church and the United Church of Canada. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I do understand the purpose of your request, but I think your definitions are a little off. "Reformed" is not a denomination, it is a brand of theology (Calvinism) that various denominations hold. It is not even a generalization of the entirety of a denominations' beliefs. Take for instance Presbyterianism. I am a part of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church(ARPC), which is a reformed denomination, similar to the Prebyterian Church in America(PCA), but substaintially older. The Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA) is not a reformed denomination. All are forms of Presbyterianism, in that they ascribe to that style of church government, but the first two are reformed and the latter is not. Hopefully I've illustrated how being "reformed" is not indicative of denomination but simply theological belief. This is why I think changing the name to reflect the seminaries and schools of the "Reformed Church" is misleading. The PCA has a seminary that is a reformed seminary, the ARPC does as well and so do other denominations. None of them are part of the "Reformed Church", but are really schools of their respective denominations and they all ascribe to the same brand of theology id est, Calvinism. Shazbot85Talk 21:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest that "Reformed" is both a form of theology and a group of denominations. The Dutch Reformed, Swiss Reformed, Polish Reformed Church, Christian Reformed Church in North America, Christian Reformed Churches, Free Reformed Churches of Australia, Free Reformed Churches of South Africa, Reformed Church in America, Reformed Churches in the Netherlands, Hungarian Reformed Church, etc, are linked together by being "Reformed" in the same way that the Church of Scotland, the Free Presbyterian Church, the Presbyterian Church of America, The Presbyterian Church of Australia, the Free Presbyterian Church of Australia, the Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand, and others, are by being Presbyterian. There is no formal structure uniting them, but they are related nonetheless. We are chosing how to distinguish between churches that discended from the Dutch and Swiss Reformed churches and those who hold Reformed theology. Blarneytherinosaur 03:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Exactly what I want to preserve, that is their link through reformed theology, thus the suggestion I made to change the name. Grouping them according to their theological belief system is A-ok by me, but I don't want to allude to a non existant Reformed Church (or church) and would rather group them by that theological system they share. Thus I don't see how naming the group Category:Reformed theological seminaries and colleges would be detrimental to that. If you wish to include those descended of the original Dutch Reformed, Swiss Reformed, and other reformed forefathers, you'll need to include those denominations that are delineated from them, even though some abandoned that theological system long ago. Regards, Shazbot85Talk 04:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Addition I would also like to add that I would think it would be in the interest of veracity to remove Presbyterianism from the Reformed Churches Category. Not all Presbyterians are reformed, in fact, the largest denomination, the PCUSA, deviated from that theological belief system long ago. Regards, Shazbot85Talk 21:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Support. I have told Hroðulf that I would support his proposal and I don't want to back down on my word, although maybe the "C" in "Church" should be lowercase. I don't see how moving the term "theological" would improve the clarity. Blarneytherinosaur 03:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Support change, but not the suggested name. I support the renaming of the Category, but suggest a less confusing name, "Category:Reformed theological seminaries and colleges" be used in lieu of the proposed change.Shazbot85Talk 04:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Another response. It seems that Shazbot85 associates the term Reformed (whether theology or denomination) with conservative Reformed churches such as the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Christian Reformed Church in North America. That is a reasonable position to take, as it is the position of some of the conservative churches that the Presbyterian Church (USA) is not Reformed, because it accommodates some heterodox or liberal theology. However many churches that incorporate liberal elements, including PC(USA), the Church of Scotland and the Dutch Reformed Churches, describe themselves as Reformed.
My hope for this category is that it would use the broader self-described definition of Reformed. I don't think a conservative category would work well at Wikipedia, as there is always the question of "how conservative?". I personally think the same applies for a possible 'evangelical', 'fundamentalist' or 'calvinist' category, as I don't think we could easily come to an agreement about which schools to include, from a list like Calvin Theological Seminary, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Moore Theological College, Ridley Hall, Cambridge and Westminster Theological Seminary. It seems to me that affiliated to a Reformed church is much easier to define.
Blarneytherinosaur: lower case 'c' makes sense to me. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The stigma attacked to reformed though is that of a Calvinistic sense, which is a coneservative theology. I don't think it's correct to include Arminian or more liberal Christian denominations with the Reformed category, and thus Calvinistic coneservatism, simply because they say they are "reformed". If you take that stance, then any protestant denomination is "Reformed" as they are all offshoots from the Reformation. I prefer to stick with applying "Reformed" with the churches that are actually defined as such, and not with those that identify themselves as such. I can say I am something I'm not, that doesn't mean that I am or should be shown to be as such. I would like to find a reconciliation between our two ideas so that both can be represented on Wikipedia, any help is welcomed. Best Regards, Shazbot85Talk 20:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
How about, rather than including churches that describe themselves as "Reformed" as in the "Protestant Reformation" sense, we include those that describe themselves as holding to Calvinism. (Including churches that held to Calvinism when they were founded would allow us to put all of the Presbyterian category in there too). Blarneytherinosaur 02:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I would be against that. Again, I'm leary about grouping Calvinist and non-Calvinist churches together simply because the latter began as Calvinist. They no longer hold such beliefs and I think it's confusing to include them in a Calvinist or Reformed category because they are no longer fitting of the criteria. Shazbot85Talk 04:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
What would people think about Category:Reformed church theological colleges and seminaries? I don't know if there is a precedent for having "seminaries" first, and this would include the lower case "c" church and bring "theological" toward the start, combining Hroðulf and Shazbot85's suggestions. Blarneytherinosaur 02:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm comfortable with this suggestion. It doesn't allude to a Reformed Church, but rather identifies with those churchs that are Reformed in the theological sense. Shazbot85Talk 03:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
That name will work.
Once the category is made, we will need to discuss who goes in there, as Liberal Christianity was pretty much invented by people with Reformed (Calvinist) theology. (Unitarianism was also started by Calvinists, but as far as I know, Unitarians do not give themselves the label 'Reformed church' and neither does anyone else.) --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 14:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
It's very much a debatable issue as to whom can be included, and really up to the way we wish to interpret it. By modern standards of the term "Reformed", the category should include only those that still ascribe to Calvinism. If we wish to categorize things the way they were when the Protestant Reformation started, then Calvinism is responsible for "liberal christianity", as the entire Protestant movement was the liberal form in contrast to Catholicism, and also responsible for the forming of several churches and sub-denominations that form what we today label as "liberal christianity". Further still, we could limit that to only churches who began Calvinistic, but later deviated, whether they still claim or don't claim Calvinistic beliefs. Personally, I am for the first, more narrow and modern interpretation of the word. I would be for only the inclusion of churches, denominations, and their respective schools that claim and hold Calvinistic beliefs currently. While the history of more liberal chuches and denominations like the PCUSA is Calvinistic, they no longer hold those beliefs due to major changes within the denomination, and I would argue that they should no longer be classified as "Reformed". They may have started as such, but are no longer, and I would be against their inclusion in this category. Regards, Shazbot85Talk 15:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the definition of Reformed churches is debatable, and I take the opposite side of the debate. Since categories are not as closely maintained as articles, I personally think debate of the definition should be at Talk:Reformed churches. I agree with the broad statement that is at Reformed churches right now: "Commitment to teaching the original Calvinism usually continues to be reflected in their official definitions of doctrine, but in some cases is no longer necessarily typical of these churches." This is a wiki, so a consensus can change that. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 06:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Half-time summary: four days into the seven day debate, I would summarize the consensus as:

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 07:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Australian conservationists

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The result of the debate was keep; cfd isn't needed to recategorize a category. --Kbdank71 16:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Australian conservationists into Category:Conservationists

  • Merge, For whatever reason this category isn't a sub-category of conservationists and is a seperate category entirely as a subcategory of Category:Environmentalists. Either this article be moved as a sub category to Conservationists or deleted due to the lack of populace. Lid 08:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge. If not merge, rename to the more conventional "Conservationists of Australia" and categorise in Conservationists. Fiddle Faddle 08:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I've fixed it (I don't see why the nominator didn't). Olborne 09:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment this has never been a delete topic, I'm not sure how anybody thought this. The reason I brought this here was because it was originally in the wrong section and assumed this was how to get it moved. –– Lid(Talk) 05:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
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Sega Mega Drive/Genesis

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 16:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis renamed to Category:Sega Mega Drive & Category:Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis games renamed to Category:Sega Mega Drive games per consensus at Talk:Sega_Mega_Drive#Proposed_move. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 07:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Halloween attractions

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The result of the debate was already merged --Kbdank71 16:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Halloween attractions into Category:Halloween traditions

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