Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive895

Yesterday I expressed concerns on the Bougainville Civil War talk page about recent changes to the page by User:Citadel48, specifically that I felt it fell short of our policies such as WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:V and potentially also WP:FRINGE. I also placed an NPOV and verifiability tag on the article. (Pls see my post here Talk:Bougainville_Civil_War#Problems_with_current_state_of_this_article).

• One of the main issues with the original version of the article was that large parts were either unreferenced or were cited to YouTube videos, whilst the article also used a very old article from the Green Left Weekly (not RS according the RS Noticeboard as far as I could see) to advance a theory which is clearly controversial and presented without balance (with probably WP:BLP issues as well).
• Following that post a number of other editors agreed that there were issues and some of the material was either removed by User:Nick-D (which I of cse agree with) or removed / rewritten by me, whilst in the process I also added a number of reliable sources for some of the material and corrected a number of errors of fact .
• I subsequently added an additional discussion to the talkpage about my concern about a likely inaccuracy IRT Australian helicopter pilots and explained why I removed the content, as the article made a claim about their presence citing a YouTube video but this was specifically contradicted by a fairly recent article in the The Australian newspaper and invited Citadel48 to discuss - pls see here Talk:Bougainville_Civil_War#Alleged_Australian_helicopter_pilots.
• Following this Citadel48 blindly reverted all changes with this edit , marking the edit as "minor", not including an edit summary, and without discussion on the talkpage. In so doing he removed the NPOV and Verifiability tags I had placed on the article and has done so repeatedly since. He then proceeded to continue to make additions to the article that suffered from the same issues, including the addition of videos from YouTube that are likely COPYVIOs.
• I raised the issue on the talk page again and posted a message on his user page here ; however, to date his interactions on the talkpage have failed to discuss the actually issues raised with his edits and only seem argumentative to me.
• As far as I can see there is no consensus for his edits (in particular the insertion of unsourced material and Youtube videos and the use of references to Portuguese wikipedia) and myself and at least 3 other editors have all expressed concerns in the last 24 hours about them on the talkpage (User:Nick-D, User:Peacemaker67 and User:AustralianRupert), whilst previously his addition of similar material to the same article has also been challenged and reverted by two other users (User:JoeSperrazza and User:Arjayay in June and July, however these concerns were simply ignored and reverted by Citadel48 or dubious refs to YouTube inserted )
• This morning his recent changes were reverted by another editor due to the COPYVIOs they contained ; however, Citadel48 repeatedly edit warred, reverting them back - on one occasion not providing an edit summary and on all occasions marking every edit as minor.
• Citadel48 has recently been indefinitely banned from everything concerning Bosnia and Herzegovina and from marking any edits as 'minor' on article pages covered by WP:ARBMAC - pls see here Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Citadel48. This AE also included the significant issue of his long term abuse of the "minor edit" function and use of YouTube videos so he is well aware of the fact that this behavior is considered problematic by the community but has chosen to continue, albeit in an area that he is not subject to sanctions in.
• He is clearly not a new user so cannot claim ignorance of our core policies (especially as I have provided numerous links to them, as have many other editors on his talk page). My conclusion from all this is that he is not here to build an encyclopedia per WP:NOTHERE and I request an uninvolved administrator to review his (ongoing) conduct as it seems to be getting beyond the realms of disruptive and becoming intransigent, demonstrating a complete unwillingness to collaborate or to learn from previous mistakes. Thanks in advance for your consideration. Anotherclown (talk) 05:02, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• I completely agree with Anotherclown's recounting of events, and point out that from the beginning Citadel48 has sought out drama in articles right across WP. His first edit was IRT Sandy Hook conspiracy theories, and a look at his talk page history shows that he has bounced from one drama article to the next, often taking fringe positions and not respecting consensus. I am pretty much convinced he is NOTHERE, and urge admins to impose a month block to see if he gets the message. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 06:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are attempting to create drama. These concerns have already been discussed on the article's talk page.

Within one day, you went from asking me to remove the links (which I did), to a month long ban.

Citadel48 (talk) 19:50, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

No there has been no discussion on your part, only half line argumentative responses on the talk page to a number of significant issues that have been highlighted with this article. You have coupled that with reverting all the references I actually added to the article and removing the NPOV and Verification tags repeatedly (which you have still not restored). Per the talk page there is clearly no consensus for the inclusion of most of the material that you have restored repeatedly yet you fail to acknowledge that. Anotherclown (talk) 23:22, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I am not creating any drama. If you lack the insight to see that your contributions across WP are creating drama spot fires in all sorts of subject areas, and refuse to conform to WP norms, that isn't my fault, it's yours. You've just been topic banned at Arbitration Committee. If you don't care about what the community thinks about your editing, you won't be around for long. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 00:06, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

At Bijeljina massacre, you repeatedly removed sourced information that I added, you claimed its' sources were COPYVIO and biased, even though the information came from sources that were there before I even began to edit the article.

Same at Bougainville Civil War, you claim the informations' sources are COPYVIO, I removed the sources' links, yet you still claimed the article was biased.

These actions on your behalf illustrate to me potential political motives. Removing information indicating the Australian Defence Force (which you served in) committed wrong doing? You removed it.

Information showing an event (Bijeljina massacre) was not as one sided as it was? You removed it. Citadel48 (talk) 00:49, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I've just re-removed this material. As noted above, there's obviously no consensus to include it, and the sources are plainly not reliable. Nick-D (talk) 04:55, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for your full report, Anotherclown. So let me understand this: the user was topic banned from Bosnia and Herzegovina for an "inability to edit neutrally" there and for marking everything minor, and immediately moved the very same battleground and disruption to another area? I'm afraid I don't see any reason to piddle around with month-long blocks. Indefinitely blocked per WP:NOTHERE. Bishonen | talk 05:25, 9 August 2015 (UTC).

Dondervogel 2 keeps on making false accusations of being a sock while reverting my changes. S/he doesn't engage on the talk page. Please help because these constant accusations make it really hard to try to engage in good faith discussions.Glider87 (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

S/hw was warned before that it's a personal attack and I had hoped the person would engage in talk but they reverted back to their pattern of refusing to talk and just reverting with sock accusations.Glider87 (talk) 17:26, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Even after User:Arthur_Rubin tried to help the person Dondervogel 2 still kept on using "sock" personal attacks to revert without talking.Glider87 (talk) 17:45, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Glider87 is a disruptive single-purpose account that operates together with a second single-purpose account. They typically operate by one of them making a BRD edit. When that edit is challenged the other comes and backs it up, thereby claiming consensus for it. When their “consensus” is challenged they respond with “you are wrong – there is consensus for our change”, citing their mutual support for the change. Recent examples include mosnum and Quantities of bytes . Relevant talk page links include one in which the pair was requested to stop and another that refers back to the findings of earlier sock-puppet investigations. They used to operate in the same way at Thanksgiving . That was a while back but is relevant to one of the sock investigations Dondervogel 2 (talk) 08:27, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

If you believe these two accounts to be the same, why not just file a sock puppet investigation? Valenciano (talk) 08:57, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I put a lot of effort, years ago, to help Omegatron demonstrate that DavidPaulHamilton was a sock from the same stable. That effort resulted in a) DavidPaulHamilton being blocked, b) the sockmaster free to continue with endless new accounts, and c) a valuable editor (Omegatron) leaving Wikipedia in disgust. As a result I lost all faith in WP dispute resolution, and that is why I have not done what you suggest. I left too for a year or so, but decided to come back. Would it have been better to stay away? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

It's better that you've returned. I understand your frustration as I've been trying to keep a banned user and prolific sock creator off articles on my watchlist with the same result, they disappear but return a month or two later with new accounts. However, this is an inconvenience to them and so yes, it's best to keep plugging away by reporting obvious socks or contacting an administrator if accounts are disruptive and clearly WP:NOTHERE. Valenciano (talk) 10:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

As the disruptive SPA has now reported itself, I'm hoping no further action is needed from me. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 10:51, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

77.207.173.119 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

An IP claiming to be the CEO of Ketchapp has asked at Talk:Ketchapp that Wikipedia "remove Ketchapp page because all information are incorrect" and has added that "We will take legal actions if necessary against Wikipedia." --McGeddon (talk) 19:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

The IP is User:77.207.173.119. Also note that he was warned after making that threat on his own talk page, which I deleted. 99.53.112.186 (talk) 19:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I'll check the sourcing to verify that there isn't a legitimate concern here. ~ Rob^Talk 19:35, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I can see why the company wants to suppress this, but it's been widely reported that they're stealing the ideas of developers, and all claims in the article have been sourced. I've done some tweaking to achieve more neutral language, and there's probably a little more work to be done to comply with WP:NPOV, but there are no unsourced negative statements in that article. ~ Rob^Talk 19:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed; the article seems reliably sourced, and your efforts are much appreciated, Rob. If this IP (who probably is the CEO; why would someone pretend to be him?) keeps it up, he should be blocked per policy. North of Eden (talk) 19:52, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I did discover a somewhat significant inaccuracy in the article. A blockquote was previously placed in the article with a citation that was allegedly from a developer whose game was stolen. The citation supported that the developer did claim the game was stolen, but the specific quote, which was strongly worded, was nowhere in the citation. I've removed the quote and reworded that section. I'm not sure whether this matters when it comes to the legal threats, but there was somewhat of a legitimate issue here. ~ Rob^Talk 19:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• That sounds good. Perhaps it will allay the IP's concerns. North of Eden (talk) 20:03, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: I think you're talking about the one I added. It was referenced by the source I included. This post is where I got the quote from. Anarchyte 00:09, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Without such a negative quote or claim being thoroughly covered by reliable secondary sources, including a statement as strong as "a ripoff" provides undue weight to that view, in my opinion. The actual source you cited in the article did not include the quote. This can be covered on the talk page, though, rather than ANI. ~ Rob^Talk 00:19, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

The IP has now been blocked by Doc James for making legal threats. This can probably be closed by an uninvolved editor, unless there are any remaining issues. ~ Rob^Talk 20:31, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

This page appears to be a legal threat. Someone might want to check out Jerry Speziale too, it might have issues but I don't know anything about the subject matter. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:32, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Definitely a legal threat. So why hasn't the user been blocked yet? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:42, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Page nominated for speedy deletion as a legal threat and blanked as a courtesy (since legal threat pages are G10 variants), user warned with {{uw-legal}} and reported to UAA as username that implies shared use. Nothing else to do here. --TL22 (talk) 15:48, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

There is now a thread at WP:COIN about this (see here), and the sandbox was deleted -- Orduin ^Discuss 17:03, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

This page appears to be a legal threat. Someone might want to check out Jerry Speziale too, it might have issues but I don't know anything about the subject matter. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:32, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Definitely a legal threat. So why hasn't the user been blocked yet? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:42, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Page nominated for speedy deletion as a legal threat and blanked as a courtesy (since legal threat pages are G10 variants), user warned with {{uw-legal}} and reported to UAA as username that implies shared use. Nothing else to do here. --TL22 (talk) 15:48, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

There is now a thread at WP:COIN about this (see here), and the sandbox was deleted -- Orduin ^Discuss 17:03, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Sonam K Sonam (talk · contribs)

Repeated BLP violations, continuing after multiple warnings. It looks a lot like there's sock/meat-puppetry going on as well. I'm going to continue to go through the latest round of edits from this account, then follow up here. --Ronz (talk) 15:58, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I quickly looked through all the edits since the last warning 17:04, 7 August 2015. I'm not sure what to make of it. There's outright misrepresentation of sources , which uses http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news/Ive-been-like-a-gypsy-shares-Nargis-Fakhri/articleshow/21860544.cms with the title "I grew up...spiritual" to source Nargis Fakhri as being Muslim, which it simply does not do. I'm not seeing such blatant problems in every edit. I've notified the others who left Sonam the warnings know about this discussion. --Ronz (talk) 16:19, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

In this edit Floquenbeam indicated that s/he had or was about to block Cityside189 and The Editor of All Things Wikipedia, as the block log shows was done.

There is no checkuser evidence. There is no behavioral evidence of either of these editors being associated or acting similarly to any specified banned or blocked user. The only evidence against was that editor's fairly detailed knowledge of Wikipedia, and his rather disruptive attitude. The only evidence against Cityside189 was that s/he was a new editor caught up in the disruption caused by TEoATW's efforts to "mediate" at WP:DRN and that s/he complained about this at the Teahouse and on the talk pages of admins and experienced editors who had posted about the matter. Oh and that Cityside189 showed some knowledge of Wikipedia, although not nearly as much as TEoATW. And Cityside189 had stated previous editing experience as an IP, and had indeed identified particular edits.

All of this evidence was presented in the #Help thread above. Blocks were suggested there, and there was no consensus for them. Sockpuppetry was suggested there, and there was no consensus that it was going on.

We make extensive efforts to document Wikipedia's policies and practices. Sometimes an intelligent verbally-oriented editor can actually pick up on this, and imitate notices and standard responses and actions, without long experience. We are not a secret club where outsiders need to petition humbly for admission. Competence and knowledge are not valid signs of suspicion, without more.

I stand ready to unblock Cityside189, who has not been disruptive in any way, and IMO shows every sign of being a potentially productive editor, provided we haven't driven him away already. If I don't see some better evidence in a few hours, i am going to unblock. I would also like to see an apology from Floquenbeam for this highly improper block.

While I think the block of The Editor of All Things Wikipedia was also improper, I can't argue that s/he was a productive editor. Still we had a consensus above to try a regime of restrictions in the case of this editor, and this block flies in the face of that consensus. if there had been new evidence, not known to the participants of the ANI thread (such as a checkuser confirmation) that would be a different matter. But this is purely a speculative judgement as to what a new user would or would not do. Floquenbeam does not get to make such judgements unilaterally, agaist the expressed consensus already and recently formed.

I ask Floquenbeam to reverse these blocks. Failing that, I ask consensus to overturn both blocks. DES ^(talk) 18:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Taking a look at this, I agree. @Floquenbeam: Innocent until proven guilty; while there may be a link, we need to let CU check this out. ^{My name is}not^dave (talk/contribs) 18:33, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• I am not going to unblock a troll so he can continue to waste the time of productive editors. If you want to do so, be my guest; I'm not claiming permanent infallibility yet. I saw the results of the ANI thread above, and was content to see if Beeb's proposal would work. At the time, I figured there was an 80%-90% chance we were being trolled, and was surprised it wasn't obvious to everyone, but whatever. However, after seeing their interaction with Cityside189, I'm 100% sure. If you want a few more specific reasons why I'm sure, I can provide them - on wiki if you insist, so they can adjust their behavior next time - but I'm pretty surprised that the additional info at the SPI isn't convincing. If you do unblock, be prepared to apologize to the people who are going to further waste their time with this person. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:39, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
  • If you have additional reasons please provide them. I'd prefer on-wiki, but my email is enabled. However i reserve the right to post any such email on-wiki unless it contains personal identifying information, or other content covered by the privacy policy. DES ^(talk) 19:01, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Really? What good is e-mailing you if you "reserve the right" to nullify Floquenbeam's discretion by posting his information on wiki? Did you not take in the point about not teaching the trolls to adjust their behavior next time? Bishonen | talk 19:13, 9 August 2015 (UTC).

Yes i took the point. I don't think much of it. Evidence should be public to support public accusations, except in a very few circumstances. DES ^(talk) 19:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

There is no possible way that a good faith newbie, regardless of cluelessness, can:

• Think that he has blocked another editor. There is no block button for him to think he could push. Did he think he did it using mind control?
• Know how to look up where admins rank on "all time list" of editors by edit count.
• Constantly say they are acting "per wiki policy" or "per wiki guidelines" when they aren't even coming close. And then saying "oh, that's what I thought it said" when caught. This isn't misinterpreting, this is deliberate BS-ing.
• Ask for an advanced permission 11 times. No rational mature human thinks this is OK, newbie or not.
• Think, after 10 edits, that they can reasonably tell another editor to be "ready to hear my interpretation of your behavior and submit to my supervision of your activities". Particularly when, a few minutes before, they were expressing fear and asking for help about this "frightening user".

The odds of two such people (who, individually, should be blocked for lack of competence anyway) interacting is such a silly way is vanishingly small. This morning, I thought there was an 80% chance this was trolling, I'm up to 100%. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:06, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

All of the above actions, except for your last point, were done by TEoATW. None by Cityside189. You say that both "individually, should be blocked for lack of competence anyway" what lack of competence did Cityside189 display that was blockworthy. I really think that Cityside189 was collateral damage here, and that the evidence that Cityside189 is in any way involved with TEoATW, as sock or meat or associate, is laughably thin. DES ^(talk) 19:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You speak of what a 'rational person' would do, but not everyone is as rational as we might like. i have encountered at least one editor here, and indeed tried to mentor him, who was every bit as irrational as TEoATW seemed to be, if not more so. As for your contrast between 'fear" and "atempted domination", aren't you aware of the very human pattern of bluster and bravado in the face of fear? In any case, i ask just what Cityside189 did to disrupt the project. DES ^(talk) 19:26, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You really think the encyclopedia would benefit from someone who thinks, after editing for two days, that he can demand other editors be "ready to hear my interpretation of your behavior and submit to my supervision of your activities"? I'm amazed. Not rhetorically amazed, but actually amazed. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:29, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I point out that he didn't demand that of "other editors", he demanded it of ONE editor who he perceived as harassing him, and only as a condition of continued interaction. He said that if TEoATW didn't like that, simply stay off his talk page, which he would have been fully entitled to demand without any conditions. DES ^(talk) 19:34, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: True, but we should keep in mind that (according to him, anyway), he's a teenager, and with rare exceptions what else is to be expected from teenagers? I would like to remind everyone about Thine Antique Pen, who started in a similar fashion and has since matured into what I believe to be a very productive editor. (He certainly has credit for more GAs than I could ever hope to have.) Hopefully this is a similar case and with some mentoring (as I and one other editor were selected to do) he'll become a better editor. This is assuming, of course, that this account is not a sockpuppet. If it is that's an entirely different story, but seeing that he has asked to be checkusered, I'm not sure that he really is a sockpuppet... --Biblioworm (talk) 20:02, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Did I miss something? It was The Editor of Everything Wikipedia who filed the SPI, and requested the CU on his user page aftre being blocked. Where did Cityside request a CU? BMK (talk) 20:37, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Regarding the likelihood of socking, we have more than ample evidence that TEoATW enjoyed having some degree of power over others. The desire to jump into DRN, pronouncing "I am the mediator" and such (even though experienced volunteers know that they are afforded no special autority, per policy) speaks for itself; so does the record of "banning" and blocking. User:Cityside189 has behaved almost identically in his "discussion" with TEoATW, saying "I am the Teacher and you are the Learner" and generally acting like some kind of e-potentate. It's too similar to be unrelated. Plus, Cityside's talk about how TEoATW is always so "fast" is very similar to TEoATW's own defenses on the initial ANI thread. North of Eden (talk) 20:04, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Floquenbeam's instincts are very good in these situations, but since others are in disagreement, I recommend that CU look at this quickly. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• I'm certainly not uninvolved, but I think Floquenbeam's blocks were well-founded and correct; I would be surprised if checkuser turns up anything different. North of Eden (talk) 18:53, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
  • For the record, I endorse the blocks. North of Eden (talk) 19:17, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse blocks - I agree with Newyorkbrad that Flo's instincts are very good in these situations. Cityside189 did exactly what socks do when they know they're socking. The user is likely someone who has haunted Roscelese before. The Editor of All Things Wikipedia is an obvious troll, obviously. It amazes me how much time we're willing to waste on such users. - MrX 18:59, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse block - Floquenbeam did what absolutely needed to be done. I'm sorry that DES disagrees with that, but those arethe facts as I see them, and there was plenty of support for an indef block -- if not a consesnsus -- before the latest "submit to me" nonsense began. There is really no other reasonable interpretation for what those two were doing: sockpuppets, meatpuppets, trolls, ventiloquist act, whatever, they were clearly WP:NOTHERE. BMK (talk) 19:10, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse blocks All of the AGF to help the editors was for naught. I would note that CUs are not foolproof. Add to that the fact that these two could be meatpuppets rather than socks. In any event both accounts proved that they were WP:NOTHERE. MarnetteD|Talk 19:13, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
  • What exactly did Cityside189 do to establish that he was WP:NOTHERE? diffs pleaase> DES ^(talk) 19:29, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
    • 13th edit, 14th edit, 17th edit. The pattern is one we see again and again from sockpuppets. I can't be more specific than that.- MrX 20:13, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
    • (ec) Please read this conversation . Cityside says to Editor of the Known Universe:

      If you want to really dialog, you should be ready to hear my interpretation of your behavior and submit to my supervision of your activities. You should be prepared to take action to do new things, and you should be prepared to stop doing things even if you think you shouldn't have to. You may have to stretch out of your comfort zone. If you want my dialog and support here on Wikipedia, you will have to agree up front to do whatever I say to do, and refrain from doing whatever I say to refrain from doing. If you don't like the ideas of this or think it's wrong, or simply disagree, then I will not dialog with you or support you, and I probably will share my views with important wikipedia administrators that you should be removed from Wikipedia. So it's up to you. (emphasis added)

      Tell me this is normal conversation from one newbie editor to another. "You submit to my supervision of your activities ... You have to agree upfront to do whatever I say to you." Can't you tell when someone's performing for you, taking the piss, doing their schtick? BMK (talk) 20:21, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse blocks, and yes, Floquenbeam has good instincts in these sorts of situations. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 19:24, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse blocks, respectfully disagreeing with DES. Strongly endorse block of TEOATW. Endorse block of Cityside189. The argument of TEOATW that we failed to assume good faith is judicial jujitsu, an attempt to use the strength of a judicial or quasi-judicial system against it, but the claim to have been acting in good faith is incredible, that is, undeserving of belief by a serious rational human being. Mediating a dispute without qualification is one thing; that could have been in good faith. Banning an editor from a topic, and issuing a block notice when there is no block button, cannot be believed to be good faith. The problem is not that we failed to assume good faith, but that we assumed good faith too long, before Floquenbeam put two plus two together and realized that two editors with equal experience were arguing with each other to create maximum drama, and in the process disrupting the real efforts to resolve content disputes. The audacity of Cityside189 in requesting Checkuser may indeed mean that they are two human beings in collusion, acting as good hand and bad hand, rather than one human being acting as good hand and bad hand. In any case, it is very clear that TEOATW was trying to disrupt, and was succeeding. Maybe Cityside189 should be unblocked under mentorship; maybe not, but the block was all right. Endorse blocks, and respectfully disagree with DES. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:41, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Additional data point, in case anyone is wavering: , last sentence. If that isn't trolling, I don't know what is. I suggest declining the unblock request and removal of talk page access as a timesink, but I won't do it myself. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse blocks, temporarily. A checkuser should be done immediately, and if the user is not found to be a sockmaster, then I will no longer endorse them, although I will continue to support the restrictions previously imposed. --Biblioworm (talk) 20:02, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Note: Since the SPI case was closed, all of the people saying a checkuser is needed should summon one. I think the incantation is {{Checkuser needed}}. I don't need a Checkuser - my decision is independent of any pro or con CU results - so I won't do it myself. But others might want to use it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:07, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• I am more concerned about Cityside189 and not really concerned about that other user that could, in my opinion, stay blocked regardless of CU results. It isn't clear that Cityside189 is a sock. And because others seem to think the same:{{Checkuser needed}}.--Müdigkeit (talk) 20:18, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support block of TEOATW, oppose block of Cityside189- the evidence doesn't say it's a duck IMO, so a CU should be run. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: @Müdigkeit: I endorsed a ChecUser check at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/The Editor of All Things Wikipedia, so I de-templated your request for CheckUser. Vanjagenije (talk) 20:30, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for reconsidering. BMK (talk) 20:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse block. AGF is not a suicide pact, Checkuser is not magic wiki pixie dust, and "innocent until proven guilty" is the standard applied in Western criminal justice, not in maintaining the smooth running of a private website. Obviously experienced, obviously disruptive—whether Cityside189 is a sockpuppet, a meatpuppet, or just a wilfully disruptive troll there is no good reason to waste more time on him. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:32, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
  • (ec again) A point I tried to make but got EC'd. Even if the CU comes back with no connection, the blocks should stand. The Editor for trolling, disruption and tendentious editing and Cityscape for WP:NOTHERE. There's plenty of back-up for those blocks, and little indication of positive value to offset it. BMK (talk) 20:42, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Optional semi-related productive activity: This article, Cityside's first edit, seems to have problems; target of a lot of single edit vandals, and parts of it "sound" copied from somewhere, if you know what I mean. I know it upsets people when I attempt to use my instincts, but something seems off. Is this article mentioned in a blog/reddit/etc. somewhere? I'm too tired of this place to dig into it, and am going outside to sit in the sun and regenerate my faith in mankind, but someone fresh should take a look. Seems like a bunch of VOA blocks and a check for copyrighted text might be useful. Oddly enough, the bearded dragon named Harry Potter appears to be true... but it also appears to be copied from an Amazon "about the author" page. p.s. Go easy on the original author, there's no reason to think she's involved in the socking, and newbies can't be expected to know about copyright. See, I can assume good faith, when it's reasonable to do so... --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse blocks regardless of whether they are socks are not. I don't think it even matters at this point. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:21, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Comment – A Checkuser should be run on TEOATW to determine if they are Cityside189. We don’t need a Checkuser on Cityside189, because Cityside189 complained at the Teahouse about being tag-teamed and bullied on LGBT parenting as an IP editor, so we know their IP block. At first I thought that Cityside189 was an inexperienced editor assuming bad faith who needed to be reasoned with, and to be told not to yell "censorship" to "win" a content dispute, and who had a valid complaint about having a DRN thread hijacked by TEOATW. At this point, the timing of when TEOATW started editing and when the IP who became Cityside189 began editing is either an odd coincidence or no coincidence. I would further submit that if Cityside189 wants to edit, they should file their own block appeal. We don’t need proxy block appeal drama here. TEOATW has already done enough damage beyond sockpuppetry that the block should stand. That is my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:54, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Checkuser comment: Results are inconclusive. No further information can reasonably be provided without violating the privacy of one or both accounts. Risker (talk) 21:57, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Given the inconclusive results, I think there's a consensus here that both of Floquenbeam's blocks should stand. As many have indicated, he perfomed the blocks on more than ample evidence. A read-through of both the first AN/I thread and the SPI indicate that both TEoATW and Cityside189 are not here to improve the encyclopedia and may well be socks or meats to boot. In any event, their interaction at User talk:Cityside189 evidences a highly suspicious connection. North of Eden (talk) 22:18, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• I am still totally unconvinced by the "evidence" presented here, especially against Cityside189. Franky I think the main fault of both editors was not socking but being excessively annoying. However I doubt that anyone here will admit that to themselves, let alone publicly. I could continue to try to refute the arguments presented, such as they are, but I rather doubt that anyone would be persuaded. I think an unblock would be within policy, but there is clearly now a consensus against it, and wrong as I feel he block of Cityside189 is, I won't take admin action against consensus. I draw your attention to the comments since the block on User talk:Cityside189. I have tasks here that I promised to complete, then we will see. I'll probably continue editing, but just now the whole thing feels dead. I really thought that this was a place where reason would generally prevail over emotion. I am sorry to be proved wrong. I ask people, if you were reviewing a BLP article, and it included the text "John Doe operated a sock puppet on Wikipedia", citing the same statements and evidence in the ANI threads and the SPI here against Cityside189, would you let the statement stand? Sleep well, if you can. DES ^(talk) 23:16, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, you're certainly right. Nothing was their fault, it was our fault for being "annoyed." (Wait, isn't that sorta the definition of WP:Disruptive editing?)
    Yours is about the most facile "analysis" I've seen in a month of Sundays, and deeply disappointing coming from a ten-year admin.
    Both blocks should stand, per my argument above. BMK (talk) 23:33, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I respect DES's intentions, and his tenacity is admirable. But indeffing presumable socks ("No further information can be provided without potentially violating the privacy of one or both accounts" is not exactly vindication) isn't like we're giving someone the death penalty without a fair trial. And Wikipedia is not a democracy and it is not a criminal justice system. Ultimately, folks are supposed to be here to build and maintain an encyclopedia. Both editors (or the editor) involved here showed less interest in these goals than in asserting themselves as authority figures and engaging in petty disputes. I, for one, will be sleeping just fine. North of Eden (talk) 00:01, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse blocks There is no need to determine whether someone is a troll or is accidentally behaving like a troll—either way, such contributors suck up too much time and energy and the community should move on. Johnuniq (talk) 23:31, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Yep. Alas, DES has gone down this road before. As someone said above, WP:PACT. - Sitush (talk) 23:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• "sleep well, if you can" oh the humanity. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:05, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I have noticed that on some "list of programs broadcast by network" articles that User:TheRedPenOfDoom has added tags to upcoming programming sections that claim there is undue weight and advertising.

For one, how on earth can listing upcoming programming lend undue weight to articles, if there are currently and formerly broadcast sections? Secondly, @Manoflogan: stated the content in question is not promotional material as long as it is cited with proper sources, in this case, most of it is. Yet TheRedPenOfDoom went on his delusional crusade anyway. (please read User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom#Regarding Upcoming Series on Zee Zindagi for more info)

This user is obviously crazy to believe that upcoming programming lends undue weight and is advertising, source or no source. He is continuing to uphold this even after I had reverted his tagging. I personally feel that an indefinite block or ban is needed at this point. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 21:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

TRPoD started discussions on the addition of the Undue tag on the article talk pages where you were edit-warring. It would preferable to try to come to a resolution by discussing this difference of opinion with other editors before turning to ANI. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: Personally, I feel TRPoD's claims of undue weight and advertising are invalid, yet he's running with them anyway. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 21:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You might be correct about the content but it's best to get a consensus on the article talk pages. It looks like a discussion is occurring at Talk:List of programs broadcast by Zee Zindagi although it is heated. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Extracted the following from the discussion:

Wikipedia admin Cyphoidbomb has given his opinion that he does not mind the presence of Future Programming as long as there is a valid source of reference. User_talk:TheRedPenOfDoom#Regarding_Upcoming_Series_on_Zee_Zindagi. I am therefore going to remove the two warnings that you inserted. He/She also mentioned that it is a standard template for television network programming. If you have any issues, you can take it up with him/her. But from now on, please refrain from adding warnings just because you object to the sections or their referenced content. In addition, please don't go about putting the warnings back again.

Like Manoflogan, I removed the templates from the articles. However, TRPoD re-added them almost immediately. Like I keep saying, the edits do not appear to have been made in good faith. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 22:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

"Delusional crusade"? "This user is obviously crazy"? Electricburst1996, you need to step back from the edge of the cliff pronto.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, maybe I am exaggerating a bit too much... ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 22:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This really doesn't seem like something that warrants actions anywhere near an indefinite block or ban. Article talk pages are there for a reason. Sam Walton (talk) 21:50, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

If the Guinness Book of Records has an entry for "dragged most times to ANI for manifestly invalid reasons" then TRPoD would own it. Reyk _YO! 21:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

As noted above, an AN/I complaint that says "this user is obviously crazy" had really better be confident that the user complained of is obviously crazy. Good faith does not invariably mean "agreeing with me". I'm disturbed about the way targeted editors are dragged into this sort of thing over and over again, and would not be surprised to find that this is yet more spillover from TRPoD’s previous persecutors. The community should give TRPoD a firm assurance that, barring actions that actually are "obviously crazy", these repeated complaints will be ignored or boomeranged; that sort of assurance would go a long way toward defusing the tension. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Whilst not being a proof of sanity, or otherwise, can anyone list off some article where RedPen's efforts have been held up as an example of good editing? This is an editor with a serious WP:BATTLEGROUND problem, across every article I've ever seen them at. They have formal restrictions against them because of this on the Gamergate issue. In particular, they have a messianic belief in their personal absolute correctness, no matter what.

Although I'm seeing some hyperbole from Electricburst1996 here, it's not hard to see how RedPen has inspired it. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

If I may chime in my two cents here, I think Andy Dingley has hit the nail on the head here. I agree that Electricburst1996 is over reacting, and using some rather hyperbolic language, but there is also something to be said for the fact that users across the board are constantly taking issue with the same user, over and over again. Even if one assumes some of these complaints are simply sock puppets, surely they aren't ALL. Seems to me that at a certain point TRPoD should take some responsibility for this as well.--Zackmann08 (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 03:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

TRPoD does a valuable job in pruning back the dross that tends to accumulate in articles. In a project where some people think that every passing mention of a thing, in every single medium, however trivial, deserves its own section in the top-level article, we do actually need cruft-pruners. Guy (Help!) 21:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

And that's a free ride to behave however he wants? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Evidence supplied by long-term abusers who get special treatment because of their perceived good content work would suggest yes it is. I make no comment on if that is a good or a bad thing. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

There appears to be a content dispute at the heart of this. One party is engaging on the talk page, which is what you're supposed to do, while the other is running to this page which is intended for reporting serious conduct issues, crying "bad faith" rather than engage in discussion to resolve the content dispute. The latter behaviour tends to be frowned upon. --TS 00:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Tony Sidaway: I left a message on TRPoD's talk page in an attempt to resolve the issue. I'll report back tomorrow to see how it goes. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 02:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Given that this started with edit warring to remove tags that state " Discuss and resolve this issue before removing this message." and then violations of WP:TPG by blanking the discussion from the talk page and then blatantly violate WP:NPA while simultaneously accusing me of acting in bad faith, I think it is pretty clear where the bad faith editing is emanating from in this instance. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I frequently run into TRPOD at problematic articles related to Indian/Pakistani entertainment. Typically I agree with his staunch anti-fluff attitude, however in this case I disagree with him. The inclusion of upcoming programs in a List of programs broadcast by... article is standard operating procedure if the content can be sourced. Rather than templating individual articles with badges of shame, I think the better approach might be for him to approach WikiProject Television and start the discussion there. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I have no comment on whether or not TRPoD is actually "crazy" or "delusional" or "mentally hilarious." I will say that deleting entire referenced, non-copyright sections of articles only because these sections are about to future commercial endeavors is batshit insane by Wikipedia standards. Should we also delete all Category:Upcoming films too??? How about delete Category:Upcoming products and all its categories? It's about time those publicity-hungry jerks at the Oxford Hebrew Bible stopped getting a free ride around here! —Мандичка^YO 😜 15:49, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Arguably, yes, per WP:CRYSTAL. Guy (Help!) 19:22, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

LOL JzG Are you serious? Please tell me how the article on the Oxford Hebrew Bible violates WP:CRYSTAL in any way. —Мандичка^YO 😜 18:38, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• Currently, there is a discussion going on at Wikipedia:WikiProject Television#Heated Disagreements about Future Programming about the issue at the heart of this report. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 17:51, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
• Can we close this discussion already? We're getting momentum over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television, and I fell I no longer need this discussion open. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 17:19, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Per this thread Catflap08 (talk · contribs) has violated our IBAN yet again, and everyone else agrees. Previous violations include joining in a discussion in which I was a key participant, reverting my edits, joining in an unrelated discussion and requesting that I be banned from editing a page he had no prior interest in, and insinuating that another user and I are neo-Nazis based on our usernames.

My interacting with this user has produced no positive results whatsoever, and every time he comes back and starts engaging in this kind of (not-so-passive-)aggressive behaviour it drains my desire and ability to contribute to the project. I have spent the vast majority of my Wikipedia activity since the IBAN was imposed trying to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Japanese poetry (almost all of these articles were created by me since the IBAN), whereas he appears to have gone back to fighting with other users over Soka Gakkai on talk pages with his only article edits being to violate WP:V and WP:NOR, something he has been criticized for constantly. I have been doing my very best to avoid directly joining in these discussions to point out that Catflap08 is continuing to engage in the same disruptive behaviour that led to our IBAN; Catflap08 on the other hand has not hesitated to attack me in whatever venue he can find.

I'm tired of having to put up with this harassment; and it's a blatant double-standard that he can violate the IBAN whenever he wants to and I can't/don't want to. I'd like to see any of the following results:

1. Catflap08 receives a block (at least a short one) for his repeated IBAN-violations, but the IBAN stays in place;
2. the IBAN stays in place, but Catflap08 receives a further TBAN (or PAGEBAN) from pages related to Kenji Miyazawa and the Kokuchūkai, broadly construed -- he has never contributed anything worthwhile to this area, but it represents 75% of his IBAN-violating edits and close to all of his historic interactions with me;
3. the IBAN is dissolved, Catflap08 is allowed continue to do what he is doing with no direct consequences, except that I am also allowed respond directly, and the community works to resolve the underlying content issues.

One or more of these solutions received near-unanimous support (Catflap08 himself was "neutral") in this thread, but the thread was archived before a close could be made. The impartial observers mostly (User:SPACKlick and User:Blackmane but not User:Shii) tended to line up behind consequences for Catflap08 rather than dissolving the ban (solution #1 or #2), and there was a tendency among users with a history of involvement with the dispute (User:Snow Rise, User:AlbinoFerret and User:Sturmgewehr88) to favour dissolution of the IBAN (solution #3).

No one benefits from the status quo, though, so something clearly needs to be done. (Also pinging users @SilkTork: @Wikimandia: @Hoary: @Drmies: and @Dennis Brown: for historic involvement in this dispute -- sorry if you don't want to comment, as some of you specifically stated months ago; just ignore if so.)

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I have not followed this ongoing drama except for occasionally skimming it if I'm reading ANI. So I'm not up to date on the history but I will say that THIS EDIT from Catflap08 saying that "88" in a username is a some kind of well-known code for Nazi enthusiasts is WHOLLY UNACCEPTABLE and patently offensive. In this stupid comment, Catflap08 has cast aspersions on everyone with 88 in their usernames as possibly being Nazis. There are almost 30,000 of these users on the English Wikipedia alone (no doubt many of whom were born in 1988, or are using 88 for any other perfectly innocent reason). If someone knows how I can safely lobotomize myself to delete just this odious factoid, please tell me. —Мандичка^YO 😜 10:47, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Per Nazi symbolism#Continued use by neo-Nazi groups, "88" is in fact used as a code among some neo-Nazi groups. Your notion that he extends this to any username containing "88" seems to be a strawman.--Anders Feder (talk) 11:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Well if you want to get technical, those (for lack of a better word) dumbasses use two eights not eighty-eight like Hijiri and myself. When I render my username in Japanese I use 八十八 (eighty-eight) instead of 八八 (eight eight). But if you read Catflap's comment, he's obviously insinuating that anyone using 88 has a "Fascist background". ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 16:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

@Anders Feder: Considering Hijiri88 is apparently Catflap08's WP nemesis and all of this is really about this ongoing feud and hatred of Hijiri88 and the iBan is with Hijiri88, there is some kind of insinuation here regarding his 88 username, no? Keep in mind this is about an ongoing dispute apparently related to Buddhism/Japan and (as far as I know, please correct me if I'm wrong) this has nothing to do with any editing of Nazi subjects (such as German, Jewish, Holocaust or World War II, etc). So, Catflap08 writes about Hijiri88: "As soon as the ice gets thin he calls for his cronies including Sturmgewehr88 (being banned from a number Wikipedias for obvious reasons – in many European countries just like Germany the number 88 is a code for a fascist background – based on edits)." ???? He says "based on edits" and "banned for obvious reasons" ... so what has Sturmgewehr88 done to indicate his supposed fascist background? Why is this being brought up at all? If you say I'm using a strawman argument, please tell me what the actual argument/intent is as you see it. Because as a casual observer, again, I think this is a personal attack on H88 and S88 (and potentially all *88 user names apparently). —Мандичка^YO 😜 18:15, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I suspect it is a relatively minor point that should not distract from the overall concern raised by OP. Your reading could well be right.--Anders Feder (talk) 18:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

That's true about overall point, I will take some time to more thorough read all the diffs. I may need to give a more thorough analysis in case this 88 remark that grinds my gears is missing a larger point. —Мандичка^YO 😜 19:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I had an edit conflict with the above two posts while trying to craft my response. I put a lot of work into it and I don't want to throw it out just because the user to whom I was responding has indicated that he/she is not that concerned and does apparently recognize that the IBAN-violations are an issue. There is also a little bit of important commentary relevant to the larger dispute that I would like to get on the record. I'm removing said user's name from the response in order that it not look like aggressively insisting on getting the last word, though. I hope you all understand.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 19:30, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The IBAN has been a disaster. The editors edit in the same area and its almost impossible to avoid each other. I am against removing one or the other because most of the problems flow from content disputes. My suggestion for a 1RR for both of them to replace the IBAN didnt receive a lot of discussion last time because of the huge length of the section. Strangely, or not so strange, the sections become walls of text and that slows or stops willingness of the community from input. But I think a 1RR is a good way to stop the battles and force discussion and consensus if not a 0RR for both of them. AlbinoFerret 21:04, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Strong support for lifting IBAN, but a different take on the next measure My thoughts on why this IBAN was never going to work are summarized in my second post of the thread in which said ban was implemented. In short, IBANs are always a dubious, short-sighted and counter-intuitive approach to handling editors who have have refused to collaborate civilly and have an inability to disengage with one-another; in cases where said editors share "close quarters" with one-another on a topic area dominated by articles with limited numbers of editors, an IBAN is pretty much guarunteed to result in the situation we've seen here -- recurrent disruption on the articles in question and endless bickering on the noticeboards, sucking up massive amounts of community and administrative effort that quite simply dwarfs any benefit the IBAN could reasonably have ever been expected to have. This has been discussed ad nauseum in the threads one or the other of these parties have filed here in the months since the IBAN was implemented and we are well past the point to stop dithering and remove it as the first step to discussing sanctions and other remedies that will put an end to this drama.

However, as to the second point, I happen to think though that 1RR/0RR would probably fail here for the exact same reasons the IBAN has; neither party has the least bit of intention of giving ground in their feud over the tone of numerous articles on Japan's culture, religion, and history and they haven't been held accountable for the disruption they cause between them. The remedy for the refusal of two parties to respect our collaborative principle and behavioural policies is not to suggest that they should try collaborating or behaving better, certainly not at this point. They would clearly both just try to game 1RR/0RR, by rushing to stake-out territory on the disputed articles by being the first to edit on particular points, and then reverting one-another anyway, using pedantic arguments about why they were really not reverts, all landing us right back here. I suggest instead that we review the latest wave of disruption and then topicban one or both from all articles on Japanese history and culture, broadly construed. That is clearly the only way this nonsense ever stops. These two exhausted any reasonable amount of patience the community should display on this matter months ago and though I need to review the most recent confrontations to say with certainty whether both have failed to learn from the previous warnings and are deserving of the proposed measure, I'm convinced there's no chance of stopping this disruption short of TBANs or blocks. The kid gloves have to come of on this ridiculousness; we've been thoroughly enabling this drama and will only have ourselves to blame if we don't draw a line here. Snow ^{let's rap} 22:50, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I actually agree that Catflap08 should be topic-banned from the area in question (Miyazawa Kenji and Kokuchukai) and, if he shows further disruptive behaviour in other areas (Soka Gakkai and Nichiren Buddhism, for instance), he should be banned there too. But "Japanese history and culture" is ridiculous, for the reasons I outlined below. For Catflap08, let alone me. Additionally, Snow Rise, you are aware that AlbinoFerret has just done what he usually does and taken one off-hand comment by you as some sort of "community consensus" and rolled with it in opening a new sub-thread, and that this is now likely to derail this discussion to the point where it will again be archived with no result, right? Careless remarks like that are clearly a much bigger factor in enabling this drama than "treating it with kid gloves", since it's a demonstrable fact that on three previous occasions AN/ANI discussions of violations of this IBAN have been archived with no result despite a clear consensus to do something. And believe me, I have not been treated with kid gloves in this matter. I have had every single word of my comments closely scrutinized for even the slightest hint of a violation and when such may or may not have been found an ANI thread was immediately opened. John Carter has a history of going well out of his way to read very, very deeply into everything his friend Catflap08's "enemies" say to find some excuse to get them banned from the project in order to defend him. There were no kid gloves involved, believe me. To see an intelligent user like yourself make a gaffe like this makes me feel a pang of despair.

Anyway, if you really think I should be banned from "Japanese history and culture", then I would like you to recommend another user to complete the project I have been recently working on, creating articles on all classical Japanese poets who do not already have them. It would also be very nice if you could demonstrate where I have ever behaved in a disruptive manner in this area. I know you yourself did not say "Hijiri88 and not Catflap08 should be topic-banned" or "both should be topic-banned", but you must know that in such a hot-bed dispute where there is a long history of users jumping the gun and immediately taking any opportunity to request extremely harsh and draconian measures, that even mentioning such a thing without providing extensive reasoning based on evidence is highly dangerous.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:23, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri, the community members reviewing these matters will judge for themselves, but I don't find my comments here particularly "careless" or "gaffe"-like. Nor do I find the proposal AlibinoFerret has made particularly impulsive or draconian. This is one of at least six threads that I know of have been opened on AN or ANI in just the last few months by you, Catflap or another party who has been dragged into your battles. They all follow a similar pattern of disruption, obfuscation, and attempts to game the system to remove one-another from your shared areas of interest (or, increasingly as a tit-for-tat response to the other party for attempting to do so themselves). Not only do I not feel that you are being treated particularly harshly here, I think that you have been an extreme amount of patience on these issues -- indeed it was several noticeboard threads back that this level of tolerance began to venture into the absurd and problematic. I personally would have rather seen the IBAN removed prior to (or at a part of) the proposal for an alternative sanction, but it's hard to see the proposal of the topic ban itself as anything but inevitable. I was in fact surprised that a pageban was not implemented at any point in the previous threads.

As to my own !vote on said proposal, I said I would wait until I had time to review the most recent accusations between you and Catflap before determining which, if either of you, this measure ought to be applied to, and I've done that now. I'll summarize my thoughts on the matter in the subsection bellow, but there's a few points that are more germane to your filing here that ought to be addressed. First off, you haven't a single diff to support your assertion that Catflap is actively and presently involved in violations of the IBAN. The link which you provide is of Catflap asking (in a straight-forward, one-sentence request on AN) to have the edit history on an article you are both active on reviewed to see whether or not your activity represents a violation of the IBAN. Not only is his request allowable and not in itself a violation of the IBAN, it is what he is meant to do in this situation, rather than address you directly and start the feud going again. You're also allowed to respond to that accusation on the noticeboard, but opening your own thread here is clearly meant as some combination of retaliation and attempt to re-contextualize that disagreement in a way that paints him as an aggressor, but it's clear that he has not otherwise been involved in legitimate violations of the IBAN, or else you would have linked such behaviour.

What you've done instead is reach back several months into the past for diffs that were already addressed in the previous AN/ANI threads on the disruptive behaviour between you two. In fact, some of these links predate the IBAN itself and therefore could not be violations, and most of them would not have been violations of the IBAN whenever they occurred; for example, an IBAN does not prevent either of you from commenting in the same discussions as the other, provided you both avoid directly referencing or reverting one-another. I know that might sound silly (in my opinion it's one of the reasons IBANs almost invevitably lead to more disruption), but that is in fact the way the sanction works; see WP:IBAN. As to the "88" issue, it may have been meant for StG88 only, but was, in any event, an ill-considered comment on Catflap's part, which is exactly why other involved community members condemned it and cautioned him not to use such statements unless he was prepared to substantiate his suspicions with a lot more than a prejudicing observation. But that comment was made (and addressed) back in April, and, especially in the context of all of these other dated diffs, it surely seems as if you didn't have enough (that is to say, any) evidence to support your accusations of present IBAN violations, so you've instead dug up a lot of stale drama in order to have some blue links that superficially seem to support that he is actively violating the IBAN and presently making personal attacks.

And that is just not going to be a winning strategy for you, because if we go back that far into the hostilities between you two, you do not come off looking like a victim by any stretch of the imagination. Catflap may have made serious behavioural blunder in making that 88 comment, but for context, around the same time you were actively stalking Catflap across multiple unrelated talkpages, userpages and project spaces, in what can only be described as hounding, despite the fact that you had received multiple warnings from an admin that this was completely unacceptable and that you were on the verge of being blocked for incivility; even after these warnings, it took the combined efforts of numerous uninvolved editors to get you WP:Drop the stick, though clearly not for long. Most everyone involved in those discussions found your behaviour to be tendentious and needlessly combative, so reaching back into that period of your conflict with Catflap strikes me as both hypocritical and highly disruptive. In any event, it is clear that you have opened the present thread as a tit--for-tat response to Catflap's above-board request at AN, and in so doing, you have failed to present any evidence of present IBAN violations in the time since the last ANI/AN discussions on the matter of your ongoing contest of wills, nor indeed any certain evidence of an IBAN violation on Catflop's part at any point in your exchanges, period. So I see strong evidence that this present thread requires a WP:BOOMERANG response in the form of the TBAN proposed bellow.

Lastly, I'll offer a piece of advice of the sort that's been given you before but which you ought to adopt with speed now if you don't want an even more severe backlash to your present efforts; your comments directed towards BMK and AlbinoFerret below suggesting that they are somehow acting in bad faith and that they will "be the next for repercussions" is not doing you any favours here. They are providing their perspectives as uninvolved parties and concerned community members, which is exactly what this space is for. Calling them, and anyone else who !votes against your interest, out and implying laziness or bad faith on their part can only solidify the reputation for disruption and hostility towards contravening views that you've steadily built for yourself here. No one made you open this thread without evidence; you could have just defended your actions to the best of your ability in the AN thread after Catflap opened it. Instead, you upped the ante by reviving old drama, and it is completely appropriate if the editors here express the opinion that the benefits of your (and/or Catflap's) involvement in the project begin to be massively outweighed by the burden that you impose on the community and the project at large with this unceasing, caustic bickering. I've pointed out to you on two previous occasions, that when you make accusations against Catflap, he generally doesn't bother to respond, and I think its strategic on his part -- I believe he expects that you will respond to criticism of your behaviour with such ardent and histrionic denial and counter-accusations that you will tank your own position. And if that is his strategic motivation in not engaging, it's brilliant--because that's usually how it bears out. Snow ^{let's rap} 00:50, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Topic ban for both Hijiri 88 and Catflap08 for 3 months

This has gone on long enough as Snow Rise has pointed out. It would be wrong in my opinion to topic ban just one side of a constant, ongoing, and seemingly never ending dispute over content. I therefore propose a topic ban from Japanese history and culture, broadly construed for a period of three months for both. With longer bans possible if the problems continue to other areas or when this one ends. This constant disruption needs to end. AlbinoFerret 23:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Additional info for those that wonder why I am proposing this. Neither party is innocent. This has been going on for months. Feel free to look through the search results. Like these WP:AN and WP:AN/I . Each time it becomes a wall of text that goes nowhere. Neither party is blameless in this, it needs to end. AlbinoFerret 02:46, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. The only other options would be indef them both, or to take it to ArbCom. This is the community's last chance to deal with this ongoing disruptive dispute. BMK (talk) 23:36, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, I would also support this as an indef topic ban for both, rather than 3 months. Let's shut this engine down for good. BMK (talk) 00:27, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Beyond My Ken and AlbinoFerret: Please show us the diffs in which H88 violated the iBan or any instructions from the last ANI. It's not right to bring up all the older ANIs that have been closed and retroactively punish him. If H88 was given a topic ban, iBan or any other instruction, and he has followed that in good faith, I can't see how the right response to Catflap08's violation of his iBan with H88 is to ban Catflap AND H88 (especially indef!). —Мандичка^YO 😜 03:34, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Ridiculous proposal. This would essentially be a 3-month site ban for both of us, as neither of us has ever expressed any interest in editing any article outside the area of "Japanese history and culture". The proposer has demonstrated in the past a lack of understanding of the dispute in question, and has been called out by myself and other users for attempting to unilaterally sway discussions in ridiculous directions far away from their original scope. Additionally, no evidence has ever been presented that I have edited disruptively in the narrow topic-area under discussion (Miyazawa Kenji and the Kokuchukai), much less "Japanese history and culture". If AlbinoFerret and Beyond My Ken, neither of whom have to the best of my knowledge ever contributed anything of note to "Japanese history and culture" legitimately think that I should be de facto banned from the entire project for three months, they need to present some form of evidence. User:Shii or perhaps User:Nishidani: you have a great deal more experience in this area, and hardly ever agree with me (so you could hardly be called biased) -- is there any chance you could talk some sense into this discussion? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:05, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• What the hell does our lack of participation in Japanese history and culture-related articles have anything to do with anything? The point is that the two of you keep bringing this back to the noticeboards over and over and over again and I, for one, am entirely sick of it, and I am certain that others are as well. Whether I've contributed to your pet subject area is totally irrelevant: the lack of control on the part of the both of you is the subject. Since you cannot control yourselves, we, the community, will do it for you. We've tried an IBan, and that hasn't worked, this is another possible next step. As I said, other possible steps are indef blocks, site bans or ArbCom. If you're more interested in those actions than in trying out topic bans, then we can see how much support we can find for that. But what cannot happen is for this to continue to go on as it has. BMK (talk) 00:34, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You're saying that a ban should be placed, even though you clearly have not looked at any of the evidence and clearly have no understanding of the dispute in question. "Japanese history and culture" was mentioned, no doubt inadvertently, in an off-handed manner by Snow Rise, and was then thrown out of proportion by AlbinoFerret. You then throw your support behind AlbinoFerret's ... frankly quite insane proposal. This dispute is not about "Japanese history and culture" -- if it's about content at all (and no user who has actually looked at the evidence thinks it is) then it is about one poet and one group he was briefly associated with. Why on earth would you want to ban me from editing every Wikipedia article I have ever edited based on this? What the hell are you on about? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You've done a very pretty job of twisting my words, well done. Let me simplify for you: the topic bans are because you the two of you cannot behave yourselves, and it will take you out of each other's way -- so it's not about content, it's about behavior. Please do not deliberately misinterpret my words again. BMK (talk) 00:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that comment BMK, and I would like to clarify my position above. While the content is the engine that drives the problem, its the behaviour of both of them that warrants a ban. AlbinoFerret 00:51, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, please show some evidence that I have not behaved myself? Catflap08 violated the IBAN (multiple times, in fact), not me. Everyone who has commented on the issue agrees on this point. There is not now, nor has there ever been, any evidence presented that the disruptive behaviour was at all mutual. And a TBAN (de facto SITEBAN) does not make sense unless a reasonable parameter has been set; the above-proposed parameter doesn't make sense, because it is based on a misinterpretation of an off-handed remark by a user without much direct awareness of the dispute to begin with, so even if the "behavior" was mutual (it isn't and everyone here except you agrees) the proposed topic-ban would not be appropriate. A TBAN for Catflap08 in the area of Miyazawa Kenji and the Kokuchukai makes sense, and has been supported by a large number of users; if you think I should suffer further repercussions beyond the constant harassment/being called a Nazi I already have, then you need to present some form of evidence.

@User:AlbinoFerret: What does that remark even mean!? "the content is the engine"!? "behaviour of both of them"!? You need to present some kind of evidence to support such accusations, or you'll be the next one up for repercussions from this mess. "Japanese history and culture" is a ridiculously broad topic, and one that neither you, nor BMK, nor even Snow Rise, have any legitimate reason for claiming either I or even Catflap08 should be banned from, given the narrow scope of this dispute. If you think I should be site-banned, then come right out and say it, but be warned that such harsh and unjustified attacks tend to come back and bite the attackers in the lower back.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:58, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

In the last incarnation of this shitstorm, I did indeed support sanctions against Catflap as I felt that they indeed violated the conditions of the interaction ban. However, optimist that I can be, I also felt that just giving up on the ban so soon after it had been implemented would be a shame not to mention a disrespectful waste of the time of those editors who participated in that discussion. I had also hoped that we would see the last of this feud here. If the two editors involved cannot fix it then it falls to the community to sort this out, so I Support the topic ban per AlbinoFerret and BMK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackmane (talk • contribs) 20:57, 8 August 2015‎ (UTC)

Wow Blackmane .... so because Catflap violated the punitive directions so quickly after said decision was made means he should be given a pass, in order to see if the ban sticks this time around? Please share your logic on that one. So is there like a 72-hour window, or one-month window, in which the bans shouldn't be enforced, you know, so it doesn't waste the time of the previous ANI contributors? Looking forward to your answer. —Мандичка^YO 😜 03:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: I stated that I supported sanctions against Catflap for his IBAN violation in the last round that this appeared at ANI. I also stated that I was against the ending of the interaction ban between Catflap and Hijiri but not the withdrawal of sanctions against Catflap. Please reread my statement carefully.Blackmane (talk) 08:00, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

@Blackmane: You are indeed right, and I thank you for your continued attempts to pump some sanity into this debate. However, Wikimandia was also partly right in responding negatively to your above post, because you stated that you support the topic ban per AlbinoFerret and BMK. This was clearly a slip of the pen on your part, since the rest of your comment indicated that you oppose said topic ban, but in fact support a one-way sanction on Catflap08 per the latter's violations. The final sentence of your above comment implies you support a strong topic ban against me, and a significantly weaker (relative) sanction against Catflap08, who at least occasionally edits articles on Germany and mainland Asian Buddhism that have nothing to do with Japan.

But no careful admin could legitimately read anything you have written here or elsewhere as actually supporting such an outcome, so no harm no foul as far as I am concerned. The rest of what you have written here is reasoned and much appreciated.

Hijiri88 (talk) 15:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Strong oppose Umm why ban for Hijiri88? Nobody has supplied any diffs showing how he has done anything to violate the iBan or anything near it. He has provided diffs showing Catflap08 flagrantly violating said iBan by reverting his edits, insulting him and apparently also calling him as a fascist Nazi. Yet you want to ban H88 for reporting this, because you're tired of reading about here? I'm speechless. Oh wait, that's not the right word. How about appalled. I have seen this kind of apathy/laziness around here (please go see all the unresolved reports in the archive) because people don't want to take the time to look at it or just tired of it. One report last month or so must have taken the reporter about four hours to compile all the diffs showing downright proof of ban evading, sockpuppetry and extreme NPOV violations going back to 2008 (seven years) and the response was "yawn, tl;dr" What's the point of having ANI? (See below) —Мандичка^YO 😜 01:59, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban for both. Would anyone who is not prepared to examine the situation and find out whether there has been an iban violation per the report please find another hobby. The pollyanna suggestions above that associating H88 and S88 with nazism should be overlooked as minor is also unhelpful—if an editor repeats such an accusation without being able to produce good evidence showing POV-pushing for nazism, the editor should be blocked until they agree to not make unfounded accusations. Johnuniq (talk) 02:42, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Please provide diff for the comments suggesting that associating other users with nazism should be overlooked. If no such diff can be produced I suggest we instigate actions against you too per WP:ASPERSIONS.--Anders Feder (talk) 12:02, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

@Anders Feder: To be completely fair, your initial post in this thread did imply that you believe Catflap08 was merely providing an off-hand comment about how "88" has neo-fascist associations, rather than directly attacking Sturmgewehr88 and indirectly attacking me, and that at least that point was irrelevant. You did not, like some other users who refuse to look at the evidence, directly insinuate that I was the one who violated the IBAN and that I deserve to be sanctioned, but the implication of your initial comment was that you did not feel Catflap08 was calling all users with "88" in their usernames Nazis. This may in fact be the case (that he is not accusing all such users in this manner), but in the context you made it look like you thought he should be excused for (indisputably) accusing two particular users in this manner. If it merely looked this way, then I apologize for misinterpreting you, but you should forgive me my justifiable misinterpretation, as you should forgive Johnuniq. :-) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:53, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: I haven't implied anything at all about whether or not Catflap08 was attacking you or anyone else. I was merely pointing out that the suggestion that he was attacking anyone with "88" in their username seems to be stretching it. I understand that "mob justice" is the modus operandi on these boards, and people like Johnuniq feel bereaved when someone detracts from the universal demonization of the user which the mob has elected to be the culprit. Nonetheless, I prefer cases to evaluated on the basis of just the facts and nothing else and I hope you too will forgive me for that.--Anders Feder (talk) 16:12, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I haven't seen any evidence to convince me that Hajiri88 is acting disruptively. Quite the contrary, in fact, accusations of Nazism by Catflap are very disconcerting. Claiming that both editors are 'disruptive to the community' simply because this issue has been brought to ANI on more than one occasion is a non sequitur. It doesn't prove that Hajiri88 has edited inappropriately on 'Japanese culture and history'. Elspamo4 (talk) 05:56, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

@Elspamo4: I think that Hijiri88 calling Catflap a "jackass", as well as Hijiri's stalking Catflap's edits and blatantly violating his IBAN with Catflap on the Kokuchukai article all constitute "acting disruptively". Like I said, this is the third time this year that a similar topic ban has been proposed. The user Snow Rise said it all the last time a topic ban was proposed against Hijiri88 back in May. "Unfortunately, the noticeboards have already seen an abundance of evidence of Hijiri's tendentiousness in this area. But as he is facing a pageban here and the possibility of two more in a thread above, I hope he will take the message with whatever narrower sanctions he might receive (or narrowly avoid, if that proves the case) and try to reach towards consensus and middle-ground solutions instead of the type of approach that has brought him here repeatedly. If he doesn't, I'm sure someone will propose a broader TBAN next time he is back here (as it will probably be for issues in the same content area)."TH1980 (talk) 21:14, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You are a lunatic. Snow rise never suggested any such thing against me in me. You are talking utter nonsense and need to be banned from editing Wikipedia until you learn to interact with other users in a constructive manner. Your following me here is directly akin to Catflap08's following me to the "topic ban" discussion to which you are referring. The only users who think I should be topic-banned at all are users who already don't like me, even though they themselves have never contributed anything to the topic in question. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:42, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri88 to TH1980: You are a lunatic. This is why the topic ban is needed for both of you. You are a lunatic, indeed. 00:46, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

• Strongly Support Catflap08 has been taking plenty of abuse from Hijiri. Hijiri has called him a "jackass" and always assumes bad faith by casting aspersions on him like "You don't want to go out and do the research on the modern Kokuchukai in order to clean up this article because you're afraid it MIGHT contradict you". When Catflap was considering retiring, Hijiri posted an insulting message celebrating his decision to leave. Hijiri's recent edits to the Kokuchukai article were clear violations of the IBAN.

This is the third time this year a topic ban has been proposed for Hijiri88 due to his disruptive behavior. He has demonstrated an extremely long-term pattern of uncollaborative and disruptive behavior on Wikipedia, He has created attack pages defaming me and has called me a POV-pushing sock. He was stalking my edits on the article "The Magnificent Seven", taking issue with extremely minute details about a sword Akira Kurosawa presented to John Sturges, and he repeatedly insulted me on the talk page. I've seen a ton of other users harassed by him in the same manner or worse. Either the admins or the community need to deal with this and impose some sort of sanctions on him. Wikipedia is supposed to be about cooperation among editors, not anarchy.TH1980 (talk) 18:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

TH1980, the above is a clear revenge edit. Your own history with me was pretty neatly summed up recently when you made a series of personal attacks against me on an article talk page and then when I asked you not to make attacks against me on the article talk page you moved over to my user talk page. You can count on me seeing to your receiving harsh repercussions for this in the near future. Your edits on the two articles you mention were clearly problematic, as about a dozen other users agreed. You should be blocked for this kind of abusive behaviour. Good bye and good luck. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:42, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri88's rants posted in reply to me here speak eloquently as to his disruptive nature.TH1980 (talk) 22:50, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Rants? Your posts are rants. Your above post indicates that I should be "topic-banned" (site-banned) because I have violated Catflap08's IBAN with me, but all of your examples of me violating the IBAN predate the imposition of the IBAN. You and I have had negative interactions in the past, as well; but how is that evidence at all? About a dozen other editors approved of what I did in those interactions because I was in the right. You need to stop this harassment campaign and go home to whatever "democratically-run" social networking site you are confusing Wikipedia for immediately, or you will find yourself facing similar consequences to the ones you are unilaterally trying to enforce on me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:49, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

• Absolute support for TBAN for Hijiri, neutral on Catflap at this time, pending further evidence of present improper behaviour Like BMK, I would have supported an indef, but we'll see if a short-term ban won't do the trick (I am personally doubtful). This issue has been bounced back to the noticeboards half a dozen times too many. Looking at this present filing, it feel it represents clear evidence for the necessity of a WP:BOOMERANG response in the form of the topic ban that should have been implemented instead of an IBAN in the first place. Hijiri clearly filed this ANI in response to an above-board request by Catflap to have a potential violation of the IBAN reviewed by an uninvolved admin, which is exactly what he is meant to do under those circumstances. Hijiri is now inappropriately presenting that as an IBAN violation itself, which it is not. Likewise, the other diffs and links which Hijiri provides above do not constitute IBAN violations and even if they did, they are all months old, predating older ANI/AN threads on their longstanding battle of wills and, in some cases, the IBAN itself. The "88" reference was unfortunate, but was responded to appropriately back in April, when it occurred (in the context of Hijiri having been involved in protracted hounding of Catflap across multiple spaces for which he (Hijiri) received numerous admin and community warnings); Hijiri bringing all of this up here as ammunition to add bite to his complaints when he otherwise has not evidence of present behavioural issues from Catflap is indicative of his general inability to WP:Drop the stick on this ongoing and highly disruptive drama, and of his tendency to carry a grudge for perceived slights against him by Catflap while failing to own up to his own uncivil and disruptive behaviour. It's become (or indeed, long ago became) abundantly clear that this issue cannot be resolved by an IBAN which cannot keep these two parties apart, and a more effective sanction needs to be implemented--and frankly I think 3 months is a light response, given how long this has been going on without resolution. I'm not entirely against extending the TBAN to Catflap if even a little bit of evidence of present and ongoing misbehaviour is presented for him, but I see none at present. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:22, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Counterproposal: Elevate this to ArbCom

• Support as nominator If the prevailing attitude around here is just "ugh I'm so over this" and thus you want to punish both parties when there (as presented so far) is only wrongdoing by one person, then obviously either a) this is not the right forum for you personally to contribute to or b) this is not the right forum to deal with this anymore. I am assuming good faith here, so I am recommending B. We need people willing to roll up their sleeves and take time to look at this from a NPOV. Obviously, the measures so far coming from ANI are a complete failure. —Мандичка^YO 😜 01:59, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
  • No. Arbcom have enough to do and if ANI can't handle this trivial issue, ANI should be closed. Johnuniq (talk) 02:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I definitely agree with your second statement. —Мандичка^YO 😜 03:21, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to hold my tongue on this for the time being. While I have indeed become very skeptical about the admin corps' ability (or, rather, the ability of the minority of non-admins who actually appear to control ANI) to deal with this issue, a user for whom I have a great deal of respect has told me off-wiki to stay the hell away from ArbCom if humanly possible. (In that case, he said that even though I was right about content, I had the weaker case when it came to talk page etiquette, and ArbCom was according to him inherently biased in favour of the user who had used slightly less foul language. So in fact said user's advice might be irrelevant in this case, where I'm not the one who called the other user a Nazi.)

But for the record, I don't think ANI should be closed -- I think certain users who never contribute anything to the project except hijacking ANI threads without actually looking at the evidence should be blocked, and others who sometimes contribute to the encyclopedia but also cause a lot of trouble hijacking ANI threads without actually looking at the evidence should receive temporary page-bans.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:07, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• A proposal to "elevate" something to ArbCom is worthless because it doesn't work like that. If someone thinks there's an ArbCom case here, it can be filed at any time, but since an AN/I discussion is open, they're most likely to hold off on accepting a case until the AN/I is finished or archived or runs our of steam. In any event, it doesn't require a proposal. If Wikimandia (who confusingly signs their posts "Мандичка") think the case should go to ArbCom, then they should go file an ArbCom case, no one's stopping them. BMK (talk) 04:28, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi wikipedia admins. There are two users (Zoupan and Alexikoua) who jointly vandalize the page of Spiro Koleka. I have tried all to convince them to stop, and so have done other users but it is impossible to make them reason. This has gone too far, the talk page looks like a war zone, the length of discussions is incredible. There are other users involved bringing sources and logic to the discussion, but that does not help either, as the vandalism of these too intensifies even more. Please help by removing access to this article for these editors. Ban them or take some disciplinary action. They revert or delete everything they please! Absolutely disruptive and provocative, a real shame for the wikipedia community. Burridheut (talk) 17:58, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

While I am not involved in this matter I would however like to note this has gone on before, and in multiple places. Wildthing61476 (talk) 18:09, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what to do anymore. It is like they are paid to provoke and disrupt. How is this possible that this is allowed in here? Burridheut (talk) 18:20, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

There have been countless attempts for constructive discussions. There was an ANI, and a previous EW that ended in semi-page protection. He has major WP:OWN and POV problems. The latest comments include "Please don't touch the article again." and "Get out of here, vandal. You have been warned by several users many times to stop this shameful campaign of yours." Please see the lengthy discussions on the article talk page for more information. I have reported his edit warring once again here, after assuming good faith for several reverts. User has made over 10 reverts, and broken 3RR.--Zoupan 18:10, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

You Zoupan and the other user Alexikoua have made probably twice as many reverts as me and have disrupted any attempt to have a constructive outcome. For you the political agenda that you are paid or volunteer to push here on wikipedia comes first, but you have crossed every red line. I have warned you many many times to stop vandalizing that article. Other users have appealed to your reason too, but in vain. I have no other choice but to appeal to the admins to take care of both of you. Burridheut (talk) 18:20, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

The user has disregarded the whole discussion and does not adhere to the least of policies. His "constructive outcome" is obviously not constructive. As for the conspiracy claim, this only shows his own neutrality problems.--Zoupan 18:46, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

• This is the version of "vandalism" that means "editing with the wrong nationalist bias". The following users are involved:

Resnjari (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Burridheut (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who displays classic ownership behaviour

Zoupan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Alexikoua (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), to a somewhat lesser degree.

Seems to me that all four could usefully find some other article to edit, since edit-warring over ethnic issues on a WP:BLP is near the top of the list of things that are a Really Bad Idea. Guy (Help!) 19:20, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Sir, the article is about a family member of mine. If it were not, I would not lose my time with the internet trolls I created this complaint about. Trust me, it gives me no satisfaction to discuss with such people. Just take my word for it. Burridheut (talk) 19:29, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Regardless who is Spiro Koleka, Whether it's your family member or not, The articles of Wikipedia HAS NO OWNERS, You have clearly violated the WP:OWN and insulting Alexikoua, Resnjari and Zoupan, These users are CONTRIBUTORS of Wikipedia they're eligible to edit your article(s). You have refused to retain the good faith and civilised manner after temporary suspension from editing article. You have been acting as owner of Spiro Koleka based on WP:SPA which has violated the Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, I, As supervising editor, will never allow internet trolls to vandalise articles without any verifiable reference pertaining section on articles. If you don't stop editing war, You will get banned permanently from editing other articles based on prolonged edit wars with other editors who have provided with significant source to support its the contents. --Prince Sulaiman ^{Talk to me} 20:02, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Prince Sulaiman, what do you mean when you identify yourself as "supervising editor"? No such position exists on Wikipedia. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:49, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

In addition, Prince, the fact that you're proclaiming yourself to be the so-called "supervising editor" indicates that you are the one who is trying to own the article. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 23:46, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The Prince has never edited the article so I don't think he has any ownership claims to it. I think the "supervising editor" comment is simply an awkward way of describing himself as a wiki editor who is checking on ("supervising") the article. In my opinion it is purely a language issue. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

If the OP has been blocked, then this thread can probably be closed. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 03:19, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@Dr.K.:I mean by going “supervising” that I help other articles to find verifiability source to support it's the contents, I never proclaimed the role of “supervising editor” thus I play active role in preventing vandalism in articles which I kept eyes on. Therefore, I have no direct involvement in Spiro Koleka but these editors Alexikoua, Resnjari and Zoupan are the victims of edit wars which Burridheut keeps reverting all the edits made by these three editors which they're helping to improve the article then Burridheut claimed that Spiro Koleka was descendant, Which he already violated WP:OWN and WP:NOPV by claiming the ownership of article. Therefore, I don't support the behavior of Burridheut who have been accused of victimising other editors in Spiro Koleka and personal attacks using summuary, Which Burridheut didn't approve of good faith and the five pillars.--Prince Sulaiman ^{Talk to me} 08:29, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

I have tried to get the interested parties to a middle ground. The sources used to assert one position have been shown to have an important inaccuracy. They have stated that the birthplace of Koleka was in Himara and as such he was Greek. Though it has been established that Koleka is not from Himara town, a nearby Greek settlement, but Vuno, a Orthodox Albanian settlement, the editors have not brought (a) peer reviewed source/s which has both Vuno and Albanian in the same sentence, thereby making the removal of Pettifer, or the very least it going to third party arbitration on source reliability an issue. Beware of picking sides as some editors of both sides have resorted to name calling (I have been at the brunt of this just before).Resnjari (talk) 06:36, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@Resnjari: You're free to edit Spiro Koleka and Burridheut had already handed temporary suspension. Long as you provide verifiability source. Its all good. Make sure to retain good faith :) --Prince Sulaiman ^{Talk to me} 08:36, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@Resnjari: The inaccuracy you're pointing to is not plausible, because Vuno is most oftenly described as part of the Himara region (be that village or town, being situated directly next to it, and not nearby, same is done with the other neighbouring villages) in official documents and historians. Your analysis of birthplace—ethnicity is flawed; As for the 2011 census and Nitsiakos' anthropological study, these do still not refute a historical Greek presence (identity) in Vuno and Himara, nor Koleka's belonging to the community. The contemporary local Greek school, local Greek-oriented rebel bands, the Himara question, subsequent Albanianization etc, should not be disregarded — your insistence in this shows only that you in fact don't try to get to a middle ground, but try to impose present-day circumstances to an older reality. Beware also, that WP:SYNTH has been attempted when the objecting side has not gotten their POV through in the discussion. --Zoupan 09:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@Zoupan: in case you have not come across a map of the region, Vuno is a separate village to Himara town. Some of those sources used say he was born in Himara town. That is an inaccuracy. Also, I have not based my information on the Albanian census nor do I have access to it (So don't accuse me). The stuff available out there regarding the census also is about a general overview, not a village by village analysis. I would like very much to see the village by village stuff and I am looking for a way to get my hands on that material (it’s complicated as INSTAT is being difficult). Nitsiakos was in Vuno and spoke with the people in 2010. So was Kallivretakis who was on the ground in 1995 who stated unequivocally that Vuno is inhabited by Orthodox Albanians. Nitiskos also points out regarding the past that Orthodox Albanians were confused about their identity due to the Greek church having a monopoly regarding the liturgy and education which was in Greek and the Albanian national movement which stressed Albanian components such as language and local identification on the ethnoym of Shqiptar, which interestingly is still used in Greek Epirus by Orthodox Albanian speakers who nationally identity as Greek. Your view regarding Albanianisation ignores that Hellenisation occurred in the late 19th century and also pointed out by academics like Baltsiotis, Skoulidas, Nitsiakos and so on. It’s the same with Muslim Albanians. Many supported the Ottoman Empire. My family were Agas like a few of the other families in the Prespa region, and funded Nijaz Bey’s local rebellion in the early days by providing him with guns, money and men. It latter expanded and became the Young Turk revolution of 1908 that deposed sultan Abdul Hamid. Because of the low Albanian population in area of Prespa were they are from, people in my family never went to a Albanian school, where not proponents of the Albanian national movement, yet they spoke Albanian at home, identified themselves as Shqiptar and Tosks and some of those who later went to Turkey still see themselves even today as Albanians (and speak it too). Back to Vuno, not all people where in favour of becoming Greeks and Spiro Jorgo Koleka in the 1920s embodies that as he organized local himariots who were against Spiro Milo and the pro Greek faction and was the leader of the Albanian national movement in the area. I wonder how did Koleka become “Albanianised” when the Albanian state came into full functionality during the 1920s? You should take you advice on board regarding WP:SYNTH with your POV pushing regarding “Albanianisation” while ignoring conveniently “helenisation”.Resnjari (talk) 06:27, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Recent history

This thread was forum shopping of a severe sort. The filing party had initiated a content dispute resolution thread at the dispute resolution noticeboard on 1 August. I began trying to mediate the thread on 3 August. The editors talked past each other, and there was ethnic hostility. This happens at DRN, and a mediator/moderator tells the parties to focus on content and to try to identify the issues, in this case, whether either the subject or the subject's town were ethnically Greek. Then, while the thread was still underway, the filing party came here. That was forum shopping. He had not complained at DRN about conduct issues, or requested that the thread be closed or suspended to allow him to pursue this forum instead. He just was choosing to use two forums at once. He switched forums in the middle of a stream, and appears to have been blocked by boomerang. I failed the DRN thread. My recommendation is to close this thread also and to pursue the content issues (if any other than article ownership) on the talk page, and the conduct issues at Arbitration Enforcement, a more efficient means of dealing with Balkan issues. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:29, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• Olehal09 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• White genocide conspiracy theory (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Affirmative action in the United States (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The following is just from August 2015. This behavior extends back much further and can be seen in the user's edit history.

User's behavior has been beyond inappropriate. They are engaging in WP:FORUM and WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality on Talk:White genocide conspiracy theory.

• saying issue is "personal" and other editors' actions are "dishonest"... even making a post on the Help Desk about it
• Accusing other editors of "try to make about nazis and jew haters"

Other behavior includes:

• They have "warned" other edits that they are "not neutral" about Nazis and White Supremacy ().
• They apparently have a beef with any suggestion of overlap between neo-Nazis and White Supremacists (see previous diff and , ).

Most recently, and the impetus for this ANI:

• They are going as far to ask other users if they are Jewish and asking if that's why they're obsessed about Nazis and Jews (, ).

This behavior is seen on other pages as well. For example on Affirmative action in the United States they called past editors "sexist and racist () and said another editor has a list of "thought crimes" (in addition to using talk page as a forum) ().

On the user's own user page they say that Many articles are incomplete or very unbalanced, some on the line to propaganda. I'm here to fix that and perhaps make some new ones too. I get into a lot of trouble because of this, unraveling the dishonest propaganda apparatus which has become a cancer, has tainted and poisoned Wikipedia. They appear to be here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS (or at least perceived ones).

Note that admins and other users have given this user many warnings ( see User talk:Olehal09) and even expressed concerns about socking (see User_talk:Olehal09#Note).

I am requesting either a site ban as NOTHERE/disruption or a t-ban from all race/ethnicity related articles. I am wholly convinced this editor is unable to edit on the topic of race without doing more harm than good. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:29, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I have notified Olehal09 about this ANI as well as three other editors who are included in the diffs. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:32, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Are you sure a topic ban is sufficient? A sampling of this user's contributions show a pattern edit warring, POV pushing, false edit summaries, personal attacks, removing sources and original research. This is an editor with an agenda.- MrX 19:48, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

@MrX: I added site ban at the end of the section, but forgot to change the title. Honestly the former seems more warranted, but I wanted to include a lesser charge as an option. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:56, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support Site Ban to quote MrX 'A sampling of this user's contributions show a pattern edit warring, POV pushing, false edit summaries, personal attacks, removing sources and original research. This is an editor with an agenda' I might add a rather unpleasant (that's an understatement for you scoring at home) agenda. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:44, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Please proove these claims you just maid, both MrX and you above! Olehal09 (talk) 20:47, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

The diffs above are all the proof that anyone needs. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:51, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

1. Eit warring: Yes I have done that. And I have already accepted to stop. Now many editors uses the fact that I don't remove my warnings as a way to get their ways quckly. Giving edit warnings after one or two edits and denie more argumentation.

2. POV pushing/original research: In some cases I have added material which I belived were common knowlege or didn't need sources. I've also used the same sources as others further down, without making it clear. Many users don't want to do any work and reserch before they give out warnings.

3. Fals edit summaries: When, find me proof.

4. The part about personal attacks: to be jewish is not bad, it's correlated with wealth.

Olehal09 (talk) 21:03, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support site ban. Clearly WP:NOTHERE per their user page, , and per this antisemitic personal attack and clearly lacking the skills necessary to contribute usefully to an English-language encyclopaedia. This 'contributor' combines illiteracy, POV-pushing and cluelessness in equal measures, and stands zero chance of ever doing anything useful here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:55, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't hate jews. If you read more than just a certain day of irritation, you would agree.Olehal09 (talk) 21:38, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Holy crap, did no one catch this edit before? I only was looking in August and July this year, but that they called another editor a Jewish supremacist back in December 2014 ... wow... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:06, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah. I guess I did, but then again. Everything else I have said about them is positive. I were irritated at the person. And it is a problem when you can't say anything anymore. Olehal09 (talk) 21:29, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Boo hoo, you can't insult people based on their identities anymore. Woe is you. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:48, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm clarly from another culture than you, where these things you call personal insults are not viewed as such. Olehal09 (talk) 13:09, 11 August 2015 (UTC)